Getting the best out of players and managers

Chat about any non-Posh related football matters here.

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JohnC
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 16 Nov 2020, 22:13

ashman wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 15:30
JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 12:41
I think that the following comparison is worthy of consideration:

Evans’ overall League One record with Posh:
P41 W17 D11 L13 Pts 62

Ferguson’s first 41 League One games record after replacing Evans:
P41 W17 D9 L15 Pts 60
(I stand to be corrected on these figures; there's often liable to be a little fuzziness in transition during mid-season hiring and firing.)

Note also that Evans took charge at Gillingham in June, 2019, four months after Ferguson moved in at Peterborough.

Since relegation from the Championship, our average League One position has been 9th. Over the same period, Gillingham’s has been 14th; their tenth place finish last season had only been bettered once (9th) in that seven year span; they are currently thirteenth.

All of the above lies within the realm of verifiable fact; what can be inferred therefrom is moot.

Did we underachieve last season? Did Gillingham overachieve? It would certainly be interesting to compare the relative playing budgets of Evans at Gillingham and Ferguson at Peterborough.
Their comparisons can be skewed one way or another. What any stats fail to tell us is the feeling within the fan base concerning the way in which the team is playing. Forget playing budgets, league positions etc. We are playing much more agreeable football under Ferguson. Above all, we were becoming a laughing stock within the lower leagues with a manager who was rude to fans and players and who failed to command the respect that Darren Ferguson attains.
'A laughing stock'? I suspect that a chairman who repeatedly hires and fires the same manager, and in between these appointments hires and parts company with six managers (messrs Cooper, Gannon, Johnson, Robertson, Westley, and Evans) all before any had managed for the equivalent of a full season has prompted a quiet smile or two in League One circles.

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ashman
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by ashman » 17 Nov 2020, 00:05

JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 12:41
I think that the following comparison is worthy of consideration:

Evans’ overall League One record with Posh:
P41 W17 D11 L13 Pts 62

Ferguson’s first 41 League One games record after replacing Evans:
P41 W17 D9 L15 Pts 60
It took Ferguson many games to get rid of the dross that Evans had brought in; that is probably why the figures are skewed towards Evans.
'Everybody needs to have a friend'

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White G
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by White G » 17 Nov 2020, 14:33

ashman wrote:
17 Nov 2020, 00:05
JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 12:41
I think that the following comparison is worthy of consideration:

Evans’ overall League One record with Posh:
P41 W17 D11 L13 Pts 62

Ferguson’s first 41 League One games record after replacing Evans:
P41 W17 D9 L15 Pts 60
It took Ferguson many games to get rid of the dross that Evans had brought in; that is probably why the figures are skewed towards Evans.
Evans clearly got better out of these players which you describe as "dross". That's testament to Evans rather than to Fergie. Evans hardly inherited a successful squad either.

JohnC
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Joined: 31 May 2011, 21:48

Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 17 Nov 2020, 16:30

ashman wrote:
17 Nov 2020, 00:05
JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 12:41
I think that the following comparison is worthy of consideration:

Evans’ overall League One record with Posh:
P41 W17 D11 L13 Pts 62

Ferguson’s first 41 League One games record after replacing Evans:
P41 W17 D9 L15 Pts 60
It took Ferguson many games to get rid of the dross that Evans had brought in; that is probably why the figures are skewed towards Evans.
To seem to dismiss the team which Evans assembled as largely ‘dross’ raises (at least) three interesting questions:
1. That team finished seventh in League One in 2018-19: how are we to describe the seventeen teams which finished below it?
2. The PUFC team which replaced it finished seventh in the recently-curtailed season: how do we describe that team?
3. How do we describe the PUFC team which finished 9th in the 2017-18 season?

Evans’ ‘dross’ posted our highest L1 position since 2014, when we finished sixth.

Managerial credit or blame for that finish is largely irrelevant to the central point, but for what it’s worth, Evans’ contribution to the 2018-9 season was
P 29 W13 D9 L7 F52 A36 Pts 48 PPG 1.65
While Ferguson compiled this
P17 W7 D3 L7 F24 A24 Pts 24 PPG 1.411

Projecting Evans’ 29-game record over 46 games gives us a theoretical total of 76 points.
Doncaster finished sixth with, er, 73 points. Evans apologists may claim that he was sacked while on course to deliver a play-off spot.

in the curtailed 2019-20 season, our PPG was 1.68, which would have yielded 77 points (77.54 actually) over the full season. Prima facie, that looks like a lot of expense and upheaval to secure a theoretical one-point improvement.

(I actually find some of these figures hard to believe, so I'm quite happy to accept any amendments/corrections.)

Evans inherited, among others, Maddison, Tafazolli and Ward. Chapman, Bennett, Reed, Woodyard, Dembele and Godden joined from lower divisions. Most of those last six players could feel reasonably happy with their contribution to a seventh-placed team in their first season playing at a higher level. Frankly, add Naismith and Toney to the nine players listed above and I’d fancy our chances for this season’s campaign.
We can only wonder whether or not the total transfer outlay for that eleven was approximately similar to what we paid for Mo Eisa.

Certainly, Evans made a number -- too many -- of ill-advised or unproductive signings – enough turkeys to see us through Thanksgiving. Some made little or no contribution to the cause. Others, like Cummings and O’Hara, added more value than one might suspect at first glance (ten goals from these two in the first ten L1 games). If I were Naismith, I’d look at Mason and FBT and wonder.

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ashman
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by ashman » 17 Nov 2020, 17:37

I know which team the majority of supporters would enjoy watching!
'Everybody needs to have a friend'

JohnC
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 17 Nov 2020, 19:57

Claiming to speak for the majority of supporters is a bit easier than formulating an opinion.....in my opinion.

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tonyp
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by tonyp » 17 Nov 2020, 20:15

In my opinion, most fans on this message board would agree with Ashman's opinion.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow - Albert Einstein

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White G
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by White G » 18 Nov 2020, 14:15

tonyp wrote:
17 Nov 2020, 20:15
In my opinion, most fans on this message board would agree with Ashman's opinion.
Let me get this straight Tony. So you're saying that in your opinion, most opinions on here will match with Ashman's opinion?

Rather than talking in riddles, please just tell us what you think.

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ashman
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by ashman » 18 Nov 2020, 15:34

White G wrote:
18 Nov 2020, 14:15
tonyp wrote:
17 Nov 2020, 20:15
In my opinion, most fans on this message board would agree with Ashman's opinion.
Let me get this straight Tony. So you're saying that in your opinion, most opinions on here will match with Ashman's opinion?

Rather than talking in riddles, please just tell us what you think.
It's simple. He agrees with me along with many others. :shock:
'Everybody needs to have a friend'

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tonyp
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by tonyp » 18 Nov 2020, 20:06

ashman wrote:
18 Nov 2020, 15:34
White G wrote:
18 Nov 2020, 14:15
tonyp wrote:
17 Nov 2020, 20:15
In my opinion, most fans on this message board would agree with Ashman's opinion.
Let me get this straight Tony. So you're saying that in your opinion, most opinions on here will match with Ashman's opinion?

Rather than talking in riddles, please just tell us what you think.
It's simple. He agrees with me along with many others. :shock:
Correct ashman.
But or the sake of White G I'll say it slowly -
We...are...comparing...Evans...and...Fergie.
I...think...that...most...fans...on...this...message...board...would...agree...with...Ashman's...opinion.
"most...fans"...does...not...include...White G.
Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow - Albert Einstein

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ashman
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by ashman » 18 Nov 2020, 21:35

tonyp wrote:
18 Nov 2020, 20:06
ashman wrote:
18 Nov 2020, 15:34
White G wrote:
18 Nov 2020, 14:15


Let me get this straight Tony. So you're saying that in your opinion, most opinions on here will match with Ashman's opinion?

Rather than talking in riddles, please just tell us what you think.
It's simple. He agrees with me along with many others. :shock:
Correct ashman.
But or the sake of White G I'll say it slowly -
We...are...comparing...Evans...and...Fergie.
I...think...that...most...fans...on...this...message...board...would...agree...with...Ashman's...opinion.
"most...fans"...does...not...include...White G.
See, I told you it was simple! Well done Tony! :clap2:
'Everybody needs to have a friend'

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