Getting the best out of players and managers

Chat about any non-Posh related football matters here.

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JohnC
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Joined: 31 May 2011, 21:48

Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 13 Nov 2020, 22:29

bristleposh wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 13:08
JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 12:41
I think that the following comparison is worthy of consideration:

Evans’ overall League One record with Posh:
P41 W17 D11 L13 Pts 62

Ferguson’s first 41 League One games record after replacing Evans:
P41 W17 D9 L15 Pts 60
(I stand to be corrected on these figures; there's often liable to be a little fuzziness in transition during mid-season hiring and firing.)

Note also that Evans took charge at Gillingham in June, 2019, four months after Ferguson moved in at Peterborough.

Since relegation from the Championship, our average League One position has been 9th. Over the same period, Gillingham’s has been 14th; their tenth place finish last season had only been bettered once (9th) in that seven year span; they are currently thirteenth.

All of the above lies within the realm of verifiable fact; what can be inferred therefrom is moot.

Did we underachieve last season? Did Gillingham overachieve? It would certainly be interesting to compare the relative playing budgets of Evans at Gillingham and Ferguson at Peterborough.
Is it possible that the skewed evidence is flawed, the football is certainly far better since Ferguson took over, and our current league position suggests that we are doing OK, Evans has become an irrelevance, or would you prefer to have him come back and undo all the good work achieved since his departure?
Perhaps you'd care to explain how the 'evidence' is 'skewed'. In what way might it be 'flawed'? Comparing the return from Evans' forty-one match League One tenure with Ferguson's first forty-one games seems eminently reasonable. If it turns out that the two records were nearly identical, or that Evans' points return was slightly better than Ferguson's over that spell, then it might be more helpful to file that fact under what Al Gore might term 'Inconvenient Truths' rather than to simply deny it.
'....would you prefer to have him (Evans) come back.....'The pigs on 'Animal Farm' certainly got plenty of traction out of the '....surely, comrades, you do not want Jones back?' mantra. Old tricks for old dogs.

JohnC
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Re: Posh v Shrewsbury

Post by JohnC » 13 Nov 2020, 22:32

ashman wrote:
02 Nov 2020, 14:58
Darren Ferguson managerial stats for Peterborough United: Total Games 145 Win % 50.34%

Steve Evans managerial stats for Peterborough United: Total games 13 Win % 38.46%
I'm a little confused by this: you seem to be suggesting that Evans' managerial tenure at PUFC lasted thirteen games. Or have I misunderstood?

JohnC
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 13 Nov 2020, 23:02

ashman wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 15:30
JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 12:41
I think that the following comparison is worthy of consideration:

Evans’ overall League One record with Posh:
P41 W17 D11 L13 Pts 62

Ferguson’s first 41 League One games record after replacing Evans:
P41 W17 D9 L15 Pts 60
(I stand to be corrected on these figures; there's often liable to be a little fuzziness in transition during mid-season hiring and firing.)

Note also that Evans took charge at Gillingham in June, 2019, four months after Ferguson moved in at Peterborough.

Since relegation from the Championship, our average League One position has been 9th. Over the same period, Gillingham’s has been 14th; their tenth place finish last season had only been bettered once (9th) in that seven year span; they are currently thirteenth.

All of the above lies within the realm of verifiable fact; what can be inferred therefrom is moot.

Did we underachieve last season? Did Gillingham overachieve? It would certainly be interesting to compare the relative playing budgets of Evans at Gillingham and Ferguson at Peterborough.
Their comparisons can be skewed one way or another. What any stats fail to tell us is the feeling within the fan base concerning the way in which the team is playing. Forget playing budgets, league positions etc. We are playing much more agreeable football under Ferguson. Above all, we were becoming a laughing stock within the lower leagues with a manager who was rude to fans and players and who failed to command the respect that Darren Ferguson attains.

Other than as-yet unsubstantiated allegations of 'skewed' comparisons, I haven't see any rebuttal of that which I termed 'verifiable fact'.

I certainly wouldn't want to 'forget....league positions' as they represent the ultimate determinant of progress.

I don't think that it should be forgotten than Evans (and Raynor') came exactly as advertised. Evans seems to be a verifiable reprobate, as he was when hired by PUFC, at which point his unsavoury history was a matter of public record. PUFC knew exactly whom it was hiring, and it knew what kind of football the fans could expect to see on the pitch. My seat is relatively close to the home managerial dugout, so I know first-hand how hard Evans and Raynor can be on the ears; two years ago, I suggested on one of my posts that an opposition manager might consider a citizen's arrest on one or both.

I'm not privy to 'the feeling within the fan base', so I can't comment on that.

Let's hope for continued on-field excellence against Crewe.

JohnC
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Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 13 Nov 2020, 23:05

tonyp wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 20:41
Brianposh wrote:
02 Nov 2020, 22:25
Evans was a joke................best forgotten.
tonyp wrote:
11 Nov 2020, 08:57
Dmac is happy with Fergie
bristleposh wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 13:08
the football is certainly far better since Ferguson took over, and our current league position suggests that we are doing OK, Evans has become an irrelevance
ashman wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 15:30
We are playing much more agreeable football under Ferguson. Above all, we were becoming a laughing stock within the lower leagues with a manager who was rude to fans and players and who failed to command the respect that Darren Ferguson attains.
Surely that says it all
It looks a little needy when you quote yourself in support of yourself.

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bristleposh
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Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by bristleposh » 13 Nov 2020, 23:55

JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 23:05
tonyp wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 20:41
Brianposh wrote:
02 Nov 2020, 22:25
Evans was a joke................best forgotten.
tonyp wrote:
11 Nov 2020, 08:57
Dmac is happy with Fergie
bristleposh wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 13:08
the football is certainly far better since Ferguson took over, and our current league position suggests that we are doing OK, Evans has become an irrelevance
ashman wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 15:30
We are playing much more agreeable football under Ferguson. Above all, we were becoming a laughing stock within the lower leagues with a manager who was rude to fans and players and who failed to command the respect that Darren Ferguson attains.
Surely that says it all
It looks a little needy when you quote yourself in support of yourself.
I'm so pleased you have a go at everybody, we must all be wrong and you and your Mr Evans must be right. I don't understand how even given the statistics anybody could claim that Evans is or should I say was a better manager, the bloke was a total ass
I don't judge people on race, religion, gender,
ability or size, I judge them on whether or not
they're a prat!

stumpy
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Re: Posh v Shrewsbury

Post by stumpy » 14 Nov 2020, 15:48

ashman wrote:
11 Nov 2020, 08:42
stumpy wrote:
11 Nov 2020, 00:32
ashman wrote:
03 Nov 2020, 22:18

I think you will find that Toney was a DMac signing - not that he ever interferes with team matters! :D
yeah, all the bad signings were Evans and all the good ones DMac.... :roll:
I didn't suggest that. All football teams (managers, coaches, owners) sign a range of players ranging from excellent to good, indifferent, poor or useless. They can work out to be cheap acquisitions or they can work out to be very expensive. Some go on to be a tremendous asset for the club that signs them, some need to go elsewhere to flourish and some simply fall be the wayside. Players all seem to develop at different paces, at different stages in their age cycle and nearly all players have a peak of maybe 3 or 4 years when they are really at their peak in terms of footballing ability. Working out just which ones will do what is one of football's great mysteries.
By the way, SE's current team are sitting in 13th. place in the league with 13 points and a goal difference of -5. They are a full 12 points behind Posh after just 11 games with a goal difference of 12 goals in favour of Posh!
The fact that Evans has poor Gillingham in mid-table is a massive achievement....comparing them to Posh ("The Chelsea of the lower leagues" in terms of budget) is like saying Fergie's not doing well because Liverpool are in the Premier League....Agree with the rest which is why Toney and Dembele were great signings and, in their own ways, both are why we will get promoted this year

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White G
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by White G » 16 Nov 2020, 08:35

Stevie Evans is a proven successful manager, there's no arguments!

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ashman
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by ashman » 16 Nov 2020, 10:27

White G wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 08:35
Stevie Evans is a proven successful manager, there's no arguments!
Stevie Evans is a proven liability as a manager, there's no arguments!
'Everybody needs to have a friend'

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Brianposh
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by Brianposh » 16 Nov 2020, 12:05

White G wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 08:35
Stevie Evans is a proven successful manager, there's no arguments!
That now earns the joke of the Year award, or even of the Millenium. :mrgreen: :lol:
'Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering'.
'No! try not. Do, or do not. There is no try.'

Elder Statesman of Message Boards and Oldie Lifetime Achievement Award.

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White G
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by White G » 16 Nov 2020, 12:24

ashman wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 10:27
White G wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 08:35
Stevie Evans is a proven successful manager, there's no arguments!
Stevie Evans is a proven liability as a manager, there's no arguments!
He didn't want to be DMAC's puppet unlike Fergie. DMAC should've realised this before going for him. Evans has generally been successful though, hence why he seemed to be a good option at the time in DMAC's eyes.

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ashman
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by ashman » 16 Nov 2020, 12:36

White G wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 12:24
ashman wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 10:27
White G wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 08:35
Stevie Evans is a proven successful manager, there's no arguments!
Stevie Evans is a proven liability as a manager, there's no arguments!
He didn't want to be DMAC's puppet unlike Fergie. DMAC should've realised this before going for him. Evans has generally been successful though, hence why he seemed to be a good option at the time in DMAC's eyes.
I tend to agree with you on that point. However, whether you like it or not, Steve Evans cannot even hold a candle to Fergie! Evans's enthusiasm for Posh (I doubt not that he is a fan) could never make up for his deficiencies as a manager. DMac unfortunately couldn't see through that!
'Everybody needs to have a friend'

JohnC
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Re: Posh v Shrewsbury

Post by JohnC » 16 Nov 2020, 21:44

DaveLister wrote:
02 Nov 2020, 19:23
ashman wrote:
02 Nov 2020, 14:58
Darren Ferguson managerial stats for Peterborough United: Total Games 145 Win % 50.34%

Steve Evans managerial stats for Peterborough United: Total games 13 Win % 38.46%
Is the definitive answer
In what way is a post which seems to suggest that Evans was in charge at PUFC for thirteen games 'the definitive answer'?

JohnC
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 16 Nov 2020, 21:55

bristleposh wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 23:55
JohnC wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 23:05
tonyp wrote:
13 Nov 2020, 20:41





Surely that says it all
It looks a little needy when you quote yourself in support of yourself.
I'm so pleased you have a go at everybody, we must all be wrong and you and your Mr Evans must be right. I don't understand how even given the statistics anybody could claim that Evans is or should I say was a better manager, the bloke was a total ass
At no point have I ever stated that Evans was/is a better manager. I have referred to him as 'a verifiable reprobate' and have mentioned his 'unsavoury history'; how does that make him 'my ' Mr. Evans? Bluster, obfuscation and misattribution won't stand even cursory scrutiny.

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bristleposh
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Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by bristleposh » 16 Nov 2020, 22:00

JohnC wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 21:55
At no point have I ever stated that Evans was/is a better manager. I have referred to him as 'a verifiable reprobate' and have mentioned his 'unsavoury history'; how does that make him 'my ' Mr. Evans? Bluster, obfuscation and misattribution won't stand even cursory scrutiny.
I have often been accused of other ...urbations
I don't judge people on race, religion, gender,
ability or size, I judge them on whether or not
they're a prat!

JohnC
Posts: 928
Joined: 31 May 2011, 21:48

Re: Getting the best out of players and managers

Post by JohnC » 16 Nov 2020, 22:02

bristleposh wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 22:00
JohnC wrote:
16 Nov 2020, 21:55
At no point have I ever stated that Evans was/is a better manager. I have referred to him as 'a verifiable reprobate' and have mentioned his 'unsavoury history'; how does that make him 'my ' Mr. Evans? Bluster, obfuscation and misattribution won't stand even cursory scrutiny.
I have often been accused of other ...urbations
I'm sure that you are as innocent as the driven snow.....or as pure as a lamb; I forget which.
Last edited by JohnC on 16 Nov 2020, 22:16, edited 1 time in total.

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